INTERVIEW: A weekend Southern African Development Community (SADC) summit in South Africa failed to broker a deal to end the political and economic crisis in Zimbabwe despite spirited efforts by regional leaders to get the negotiating parties in Zimbabwe to close ranks. Cape Argus’s Basildon Peta caught up with two of the key negotiating parties soon after the summit ended.
Morgan Tsvangirai, the leader of the larger formation of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC), who has refused to sign a deal currently on the table, explains in detail why a deadlock remains.
QUESTION: There were a lot of expectations that a deal would be signed by the end of the SADC summit on Sunday. That did not happen and it seems we are back to square one. Why?
ANSWER: Well, we have not made much progress because the expectation was that President Mbeki would use the collective leadership wisdom of SADC to bring the parties to some form of an agreement. Now it would appear that on the other outstanding issues, we are still as far apart as at the beginning. The only fortunate thing is that both parties realise that they cannot walk away from the negotiations.
Q: What are these issues that still hold this dialogue back?
A: The real differences arise out of the roles and powers of the two critical positions in this proposed government, which is the powers of the president and powers of the prime minister, especially in terms of authority, in terms of who is responsible for what.
Q: There is a view that you are overplaying your hand in these negotiations since you did not win an absolute majority in Parliament on March 29 to justify claiming complete executive power. Only one seat separates you from ZANU PF minus the 10 seats that Arthur Mutambara’s faction holds?
A: We are not claiming complete executive power. We are talking about shared executive power. Anyone who claims that we are overplaying our hand doesn’t understand the mandate given to us by the people on 29 March. The thing that is fundamental is that the people of Zimbabwe spoke. Fifty-seven percent of the people who voted said they no longer had any confidence in Mugabe. If you then consider the events of June 27 (the run off election) which was not accepted by anyone, then you can ask where Mugabe derives his legitimacy. It’s ZANU PF which is therefore overplaying its hand. He (Mugabe) can only get legitimacy by saying that he is the caretaker president until another election is held. That’s why there is need for a transition. That’s why Mugabe cannot continue to enjoy the same powers he had before.
Q: We understand that SADC tabled a last minute compromise deal that you and Mugabe rejected. Can you let us in on that?
A: No SADC proposal was given to us. All we were told is that we have to be part of the process in order to influence the process without specifically defining how that process is going to work in real terms. And that is the difficulty we have got.
Q: Who is the stumbling block in this whole process?
A: From what we see and when you analyse the powers of the president and the prime minister, and you see that there is no shared responsibility and authority, you then have to say it’s ZANU PF who is the stumbling block.
Q: But ZANU PF says you are the stumbling block?
A: Let them demonstrate what powers they have ceded to the prime minister or to the other party. Identify those areas and you will easily see who is the stumbling block.
Q: The deal on the table that you refused to sign stipulates that executive power will reside in the president, prime minister and cabinet. It’s an all-encompassing arrangement . . . which ZANU PF says will foster collective responsibility rather than try to make a distinction between president and PM?
A: There is no such thing as collective executive authority. Somebody is responsible. Why are they afraid of pinpointing that you (Mugabe) is responsible as head of state for these functions and you (Tsvangirai) is responsible for government with these functions. Why are they afraid to do that? That demarcation of responsibility is very important for accountability purposes, for authority purposes. You cannot expect the MDC to be tasked with turning around the mess in Zimbabwe without being given authority. Does that make sense?
Q: Your stance is that the prime minister should chair Cabinet, appoint Cabinet ministers, and generally be in charge of running Cabinet. Do you foresee yourself compromising and negotiating that position?
A: That is our fundamental position. It’s very very fundamental and non-negotiable. It would be unprecedented to have a president with a ceremonial prime minister . . . We have said to them we don’t want to have a ceremonial president. But we also don’t want to have a ceremonial prime minister?
Q: If ZANU PF thinks that they have given much power to the position of prime minister, why don’t you tell them to have that position and your party assumes the presidency?
A: We told SADC that. We said let’s swap roles. If they don’t want to concede the facts, we said the other solution is for them to take the prime minister’s role and we take the president’s.
Q: And what did SADC say?
A: I don’t think they said anything on it.
Q: And what about Mugabe?
A: I don’t know what his response is to that?
Q: There is also a view that progress is stalled because the style of President Mbeki’s mediation, deemed by some to be pro-Mugabe, is part of the problem?
A: I am in the negotiations as one of the parties and it would be improper to start besmirching the mediation effort.
Q: Another view is that you haven’t adequately reached out to Arthur Mutambara’s faction of the MDC which is now allegedly siding with ZANU PF in the talks to your disadvantage?
A: It’s in the public domain that we announced to the whole world that we have a coalition agreement. So what kind of reaching out is needed, other than to observe the conditions of that coalition agreement. If the Mutambara group have decided to align with ZANU PF, that’s their choice. But they must also know that in terms of that coalition agreement, there is a breach.
Q: Are you speaking as one with Mutambara in the negotiations. At his Press conference last week, he said you ought to put Zimbabwe first, implying that he disagrees with your positions?
A: I thought we were all playing in the same court . . . But it would appear that that is not the case. They (the Mutambara faction) have other views. And I think we need to revisit the coalition agreement and ask them whether we are still together insofar as these negotiations are concerned.
Q: SADC has said Parliament can now be reconvened. What effect will this have on the negotiations in view of the fact that the MOU had said convening of Parliament and appointment of Cabinet ought to be delayed until the negotiations are completed?
A: It will have no effect. As far as we are concerned we don’t see anything wrong with that. Let Parliament be reconvened.
Q: What about Cabinet?
A: Parliament is the expression of the will of the people. Cabinet is another thing. Convening Parliament does not necessarily mean that a Cabinet should be appointed. If Parliament is being reconvened to deal with this dispute, then let it deal with the dispute. But that does not mean Mugabe unilaterally goes to form a government and have Cabinet ministers. If that is the intention, then it will be a breach of the MOU.
Q: So where do things stand now. When are these negotiations resuming and where and for how long?
A: I am not the mediator. That is the responsibility of President Mbeki, the mediator, to manage. We have not heard anything from him as yet.
Q: What happens if this deadlock remains. It looks like Mugabe is not going to budge and you will not budge?
A: Leadership is no just about compromise, it’s also about principle and about the people. It’s not about an elite pact or position sharing. It’s about people’s expectations. The people’s expectations are clear. They want a democratic government to take them out of this crisis caused by mismanagement. Achieving such a government will remain our goal.
Q: ZANU PF keeps on alleging that a deal with you remains difficult because you are reporting and taking instructions from Britain and the United States who have said they will not fund any government in which Mugabe remains powerful?
A: Well I am sure that you know the ZANU PF rhetoric, and line and lies. They always say that the MDC does not think for itself. We are even being accused that the position papers we are presenting are being written by the British and the Americans. It’s very unfortunate. They continue with this paranoia of a conspiracy. But if they were honest, they would go out and try to find out what are the people’s expectations. If they can build confidence in us, we will build confidence in them. That’s the only way to move forward.
Q: What’s next if nothing is resolved in Mbeki’s mediation.
A: This is a conflict of emotions and not principals. The sooner ZANU PF realises that they have no monopoly in determining the future of the country and that they have to accommodate MDC as partner and not as an enemy, the better.
Q: What is your Plan B if the dialogue fails?
A: Ah! We can’t start discussing plan Bs, plan Cs, plan Ds, and plan Es . . .
Q: One of the army commanders is said to have told a meeting of the Joint Operations Command (JOC) that the only way to get the MDC to agree to a deal is to kill you. Are you afraid?
A: Well they have all the guns, and I can’t prevent them from planning to eliminate me. But if they succeed, they would have my blood on their hands
well said MT.
I’m proud of you Richard. Maybe you need to explore more ways to build mutual confidence and help ZPF grow out of it’s childish emotions so it can see things clearly. Time is not on our side, as the electorate; and ZPF is engaging in such scorched earth policies that by the time a settlement is reached, there may not be anything left.
Apa wataura Morgan….Kunyepa tinganyepa zvedu isu we Herald.
Morgan you need to tell the world the truth, Who is behind you in all this? We Zimbabweans know very well that some from far away world with interest on this part of the world called Zimbabwe is yoyoing you ever since . Remember Zimbabwe is full of intellec-people who are not much into politics but see which is which in politics. Please don’t play games with Zimbabwe if you believe in “vanhu” let not play games. We are monitoring all events from afar we will come for you! be warned you are wasting time and life!
“I knew nothing would come out of the talks,” said a young man at the funeral in Highfield.
“I dreamt the shelves in the shops had filled and you could choose what you wanted,” another young man said and everyone around laughed.
“I can’t afford to send my children to boarding school and I am ashamed to admit it even to myself,” the headmaster in Centenary had said recently, looking away from me.
“I want to get out of this place,” said a young man sipping a lager.
Someone later told me the young man had recently graduated from university.
All along, I have been trying to avoid being personal, but can you imagine that all the proceeds from my 15 hectares of tobacco this season, minus costs, will not be enough to buy two rear tyres for my 80-horsepower tractor! And Morgan Tsvangirai refuses to sign the agreement at the last minute to help the country get out of such a mess?
In his 2008 Mid-Term Monetary Policy Statement, the Governor of the Reserve Bank, Dr Gideon Gono, said there was no way his ****tail of measures can permanently fix the economy without a political solution.
The sanctions slapped on the country by the West are a political instrument intended to achieve a political objective — to change Government and reverse the Land Reform Programme.
But that is not what is being publicly said.
What are being publicly given as the reasons for the sanctions are alleged human rights violations, and the people alleging those human rights violations are members of the opposition parties. A political agreement between the ruling party and the opposition parties would remove the reason that is publicly given to justify sanctions. It’s a mind game with the West that people like Thabo Mbeki saw a long time ago.
That is why he called for political dialogue between the country’s major political parties several years ago.
Morgan Tsvangirai’s refusal to sign the agreement at the last minute would seem to suggest that (a) someone somewhere is using him and (b) that real reason for sanctions has nothing to do with human rights violations and democracy.
“What does he want anyway?” asked my brother’s wife with resignation.
If he could answer that question honestly and sincerely he would not have refused to sign the agreement that he had helped to co-author. Someone with the answer to my sister-in-law’s question must have persuaded him not to sign. It’s a mind game that those amongst us who believed in smart and targeted sanctions have begun to see through.
The perception that Zimbabwe is vehemently anti-British is exaggerated.
How can we be regarded so when our institutions, systems and even culture are so British?
It would be like rejecting a big part of ourselves. Take our judiciary for instance; the judges, their white wigs and red ankle-length robes.
The outlook is so British it must leave the British establishment blushing.
The other day I was watching live coverage of events at the National Heroes’ Acre.
There again, the proceedings were so British, down to the Last Post, the sorrowful tune the army band trumpets before the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
That is the tune the British play to honour their dead soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.
In spite of his anger, Nathaniel Manheru, the columnist in the Herald on Saturday, writes his Other Side in such breathtaking English the British must secretly envy him.
The rest of English-speaking Africa laughs at us for speaking English better than the British, as if the entire nation went through Oxford.
The young man who wanted to get out of the country was most probably dreaming of going to London.
Our connection with the British is so intrinsic it cannot be wished away.
I think the real problem between us is too much liking of each other.
There are moments when the British and ourselves cannot understand how disagreement over a commitment made at Lancaster House 30 years ago over the land issue could be allowed to degenerate into such a mess.
Only recently, I stumbled upon an old tape from the 60s where James Chikerema, flanked by George Nyandoro and other nationalists was pleading with the British to dislodge Ian Smith and give us our land.
Knowing we had to go through a bloody war to get the land, I laughed inwardly at the nationalist simplicity.
But technically, that position never changed though right to the Lancaster House conference in 1979.
We were fighting Ian Smith and the British were on our side.
The appointment of Lord Soames as Governor was to return the country to colonial status and Prince Charles would come on April 18, 1980 to lower the Union Jack and officially give the country to us.
Even now, at the height of the acrimony, President Mugabe speaks about his special personal relationship with Queen Elizabeth II and the rest of the Royal Family.
You are left with a sense of something strong, something like love that has survived the acrimony.
The disagreement with the British over the issue of the land that had assumed the scale of a full-blown war has to be resolved and concluded in a manner that leaves the two sides able to talk to each other.
All wars are eventually concluded around tables. Thabo Mbeki’s gallant effort was intended to secure the deal that would have ended that war. Then Tsvangirai refused to sign.
It is logical to assume that what Morgan Tsvangirai wants must be located within what all other Zimbabweans want.
If, however, it is found outside what others want, it becomes a tragedy.
Perhaps he needs a little reminding: you are Zimbabwean, you are Zimbabwean, you are Zimbabwean.
But as my old mother keeps saying: no one believed the war (meaning the liberation war) would one day come to an end, but it did.
We may be disappointed, but life has to go on.
Morgidza Tsvanga.Here is the truth.It is the majority of the Zimbabwean people who are behind me.I will continue to let you confused people believe that it is the west as it seems you cannot get them out of your mind.
ndizvo Save.Mugabe kumusha.
This Morgidza guy gives us an extract from the Herald stupid idiot. I am glad that those who were at the funeral now notice the seriousness of these talks and the importance of having Mr Morgan on board. Are the shelves empty Mugabe must have plan z Wake up Mr President come up with something forget about Morgan you are the president are you failing if so give Morgan a chance. Or continue destroying the country till there is no more land left.Enjoy the ride.
Morgan
Its the west and europe who are behind you in everything that you say, eat, sleep and loo! come off that boat and be a true Zimbabwean. thats why you didn’t score the right % for the presidency in March because not all Zimbabweans are fools. In actual fact those who voted for you in March did so through hardships created by you puppets. We will never salute you Mr Morgan forget.Why? because we know where we are coming from!! Go on sign whatever document but this is our Zimbabwe and its not on sale.
The research and study which Zimbabweans have to undertake must include exposing and understanding the patterns of US interventions in other countries since 1893. For it is the US model of foreign intervention which has operated here since the US sanctions law called Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act in 2001.This research shows that what tr****s the desire for US intervention is not politics, not human rights and not the need to promote democracy. It is, rather, economic interest. A multinational corporation or several of them, based in the US or in an allied country, first complain that their interests are being threatened or hindered by certain actions, laws or policies of the targeted government.In the case of Zimbabwe, it is multinational corporations in agro-business and in mining which felt threatened by Zimbabwe’s African land reclamation movement; by Zimbabwe’s land redistribution programme; by Zimbabwe’s denunciation of and efforts to abandon structural adjustment; by Zimbabwe’s intervention in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC); by Zimbabwe’s Look East policy; and, recently, by the Mines and Minerals Amendment Act and the Indigenisation and Empowerment Act.
morgidza.Are you having nightmares about the west.The more you believe that it is the west behind me then the more distanced you are getting from the truth.MDC did win more than 50% of the votes but zanu could not handle losing by such a huge margin and so they spent more than a month rigging the results.It must be very dissheartning for mugabe to claim to be the president of a country of which he knows that more than 75% of the population do not want him.Morgidza,you claim that Zimbabwe is your country but you choose not to live there.You prefer to live in England the country that you blame for all Zimbabwe’s problems.Why ?It is a well known fact that zanu is now dying.Soon mugabe will be dead and there are a lot of hungry soldiers who do not support zanu who will be wanting food.They know that the only way to that food is to eradicate the zanu government and it’s commanders.It is impossible for zanu to repair the dammage that it has done.Time will show.The people will win.
Morgan!
Thats petty politics Morgan, This shows your level of education. uridofo period! can’t debat with you might end up ndava “dhandha” head! with that level of thinking ndopowoti unoda kuta president wani! tiitire mushe iwe enda unochera mbeva Buherako!
morgidza. Do you find it difficult to debate the truth.Untill you remove your blinkers and see the truth you will continue to fail.zanu is running out of time and the end is near.They have failed as it was said they would before they came to power.The puppet regime of mugabe is taking it’s last gasp of air.They have created their own downfall and it cannot be undone.morgidza,your level of education shows when you write your own comments.Most of your comments are coppied from other articles because your lack of intelligence does not allow your brain to think for it’s self.When you write in your own words your lack of education comes out.
What truth are you saying Morgan, Zimbabweans have suffered just coz you want to rule, wombodyawo, but chibhoyi chakakupinda wena, how many pounds are at your disposal every month? How many families are struggling to have a decent meal in Zimbabwe just because of a silly boy from Buhera want to rule!? How many people are dying throughout Zimbabwe just because a puppet by SAVE totem want to rule Zimbabwe. We have suffered Morgan we don’t want you anymore. Guns are already loaded just make a mistake you are History! Zanu PF is not finished, by the end of these talks it will be flouting on cloud 9, all puppets will be History including you Morgan!!!!! haaaaaaaaahahahahahaha! politics dzinotoda vaMugabe idzi kwete dzenyu anaTea Boy dzekuchikoro “student politics”, mahumbwe amunoita muMDC haidi kusekererwa nyika ingatorwe!
viva Cde R.G Mugabe pasi nezvimbwasungata!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Puppy Dog Eyes
Morgidza showing your lack of education again.In all the time that Zimbabweans have been suffering who has been in power?All those families struggling to have a decent meal and dying in Zimbabwe is because of who is in power.Who controls the country?Who is the one who calls himself president?Who is the one who makes all the decisions?Why is he allowing the zimbabwe people to starve and die?He says this is an African problem and will be sorted out by Africans!!!! What is he waiting for?Does he want the west to help and poor billions of forex into his pocket? Why doesn’t Africa poor billions of forex into his pocket if this is an African problem.If he believes he was truly elected why did he negotiate in the talks?Why wont he hold a free and fair election without any intimidation,rape or murder?Why is he so afraid of the international press?Why is he trying to hide all the mistakes and corruption that he has created in the last 28 years?Why is he such a huge failure?Why wont he allow aid agencies to feed the starving people?Why is all this aid rotting in South Africa because he wont allow it into the country? None of these things have anything to do with the MDC.We are not the government.If you want to point fingers then point them to zanu.This is where all your problems are.Don’t blame the West because you want nothing to do with the West.Leave idiot boboon to rule and Zimbabwe is dead.When it dies MDC will pick up the pieces and rebuild it back into it’s former prosperous nation that it once was before the arrival of those delinquents called zanu.
Is Morgen more power hungry than the old man himself? If he can help us MR TSVANGIRAI PLEASE DO before there is nothin to rule in the end……….
Morgan uridofo mwanangu dai maziso ako achiwona waiwonawo sezvinoita vamwe, Varungu venyu avo ndovawondonga nyika mwanawe. remove those blinkers and see clearly how the MDC and its masters have destroyed oooooooOUR ZIMBABWE! wake up chana chavatete and smell the coffee! Usavate nezamu mukanwa!
morgidza. Dont blame MDC for your failings.You destroyed your country by your self.I woke up the day zanu came to power.So glad i did otherwise i would be in your situation.zanu party of failures.zanu have proved to the world that they are only capable of destroying a country.Typical zanu to blame someone else for their wrong doing.No wonder they can’t run a country.What a joke the zanu party is.We will leave zanu to kill themselves as they bring about untold starvation and total collapse of the economy.Their new farmers blame the drought yet all the dams are full.The government blames the West yet they are not the Zimbabwe government.We will sit back and watch you idiots self destruct with a big smile on our faces.
shame, dzangu tsamwa hadziverengeke ndakanzwa vara rekuti MDC, vara rokuti Morgan, mavara ekuti MDC supporters! shame on you!
Shame on you zanu supporters.You go out and rape and murder and steal and now you ask why there is no food or crops or money.Do you honestly think anyone is going to work for or support idiot thugs like you.You can all die a slow and painfull hungry death.You reap what you sow.
The war vets are now telling their puppet boboon what to do.He has to listen to them and do as they say.They control him.Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha what a pathetic little baboon he is.bob you have no power,You just like a little girl.You couldn’t fight your way out of a paper bag Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha .It is so funny to watch you going to the dogs where you belong.You just a dog with rabies Ha Ha Ha Ha.Monkey see Monkey do.